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cosmostein





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:

The greatest probability is that this handgun is illegal as is walking around with it on your person (if I understand it correctly). We already have registration of guns, and permits to own them, transport them, etc.


Its possible and even likely that the weapon wasn't used by it registered owner, however I don't know for sure.

To your point, you are correct.
For restricted weapons there has been a registry in some capacity in place since 1977 and the current requirements have been part of the Firearms Act of 1995. Coupled with the fact that an overwhelming amount of handguns were prohibited as of December 1, 1998.

Whenever I see calls for a "handgun" ban I often wonder if these politicians have tried to acquire one legally. Its quite challenging but its amazing how easy they make it sound.

Legal handguns are not your issue with gun violence, its the issue you fundraise on

If you want to get illegal weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them you need to take a hard look at increasing the CBSA budget for officers and searches.

Any action on "gun violence" that doesn't have a border proponent isn't addressing the biggest problem.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

If you want to get illegal weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them you need to take a hard look at increasing the CBSA budget for officers and searches.


As reported by the Natl Post, the issue rising is it is legal gun owners selling them , not the legal importing of same.
If so, CBSA can do bupkiss.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's such a thing as diminishing returns with policies like gun control. I think we have passed the point where more gun controls gets us more safety. It's just a judgement but I hear my neighbours complaining all the time, and they are almost all long gun owners, and cross-bow hunters.

As a practical step, foot patrols -- showing the uniform, getting cops out of their cars and on the busy streets -- does a lot to scare off a lot of street hoodlums, and maintain the peaceful environment to people can pursue their happiness however they choose. They don't have to make arrests, just having a uniformed cop on the block. passing by every few minutes does a lot.

But no doubt, Cosmo is right -- it's about fund-raising and pretending to be on the job, rather than doing anything effective to save lives.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I listened to Mayor Tory babble on, praising the city's medical services, and droning on about gun control, and urging the public NOT drawing any conclusions, and accept whatever conclusions the police draw as fact.

Pathetic. It's avoidance of everything everyone is actually thinking. Including him! He clearly thinks it's a problem because he knows the perp is a Moslem. He doesn't want us to ask any questions. The police chief refers to the corpse that did the shooting as "a suspect"! Talk about circumspect!

Quote:
Mayor Tory issues statement following Danforth shooting, urges public to not jump to conclusions

Toronto Mayor John Tory offered a statement to the media early Monday morning following the deadly shooting in Toronto’s Danforth neighbourhood, urging the public not to jump to conclusions.
https://globalnews.ca/video/4346615/mayor-tory-issues-statement-following-danforth-shooting-urges-public-to-not-jump-to-conclusions


There is a set of videos at the site. They give the sequence of his televised statements. Worth watching for any student of platitudes.
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
Bugs wrote:

The greatest probability is that this handgun is illegal as is walking around with it on your person (if I understand it correctly). We already have registration of guns, and permits to own them, transport them, etc.


Its possible and even likely that the weapon wasn't used by it registered owner, however I don't know for sure.

To your point, you are correct.
For restricted weapons there has been a registry in some capacity in place since 1977 and the current requirements have been part of the Firearms Act of 1995. Coupled with the fact that an overwhelming amount of handguns were prohibited as of December 1, 1998.

Whenever I see calls for a "handgun" ban I often wonder if these politicians have tried to acquire one legally. Its quite challenging but its amazing how easy they make it sound.

Legal handguns are not your issue with gun violence, its the issue you fundraise on

If you want to get illegal weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them you need to take a hard look at increasing the CBSA budget for officers and searches.

Any action on "gun violence" that doesn't have a border proponent isn't addressing the biggest problem.




the big question is if they " banned " hand guns , what legal difference would that make under the criminal code if someone was caught with one illegally ?


I'm confused as to how they could possibly ban something that is already illegal to own if you don't have a license or permit


my understanding is that whatever charges someone faced in court would likely be exactly the same as the charges they would face now if they were caught with one


so it doesn't exactly seem like the ultimate solution to Toronto's crime problem , in fact it doesn't even seem like a solution at all


and for John Tory saying there is no reason for anyone to have a hand gun in Toronto , what about personal protection , my guess if it were legal to own a hand gun for personal protection in Canada there would be a huge market in Toronto of people wanting to buy one rate now
RCO





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

( a purely symbolic and legally meaningless vote but Toronto city council voted in support of a city wide ban on hand guns and ammunition sales .

but considering the police cannot catch the gun packing criminals to begin with you'd have to wonder how banning the already illegal would do any good ? after the tragic van attack in Toronto this spring no one discussed even restricting uhaul renting or anything but now we need to take away the rights of legal gun owners to prevent crime by illegal guns , ok I see the logic here )





Mayor John Tory voices support as council votes for city-wide ban on handguns



Council voted for a number of measures Tuesday evening to combat rise in gun violence


CBC News · Posted: Jul 24, 2018 8:24 PM ET | Last Updated: 11 minutes ago


Mayor John Tory said he supports banning the sale of handguns and ammunition in the city of Toronto. (Nick Kozak/Canadian Press)


1 comments


Mayor John Tory has thrown his support behind a handgun ban in the city of Toronto, which council voted for by an overwhelming margin Tuesday evening.

Before the vote, Tory told CBC Toronto Tuesday he supports the motion put forward by Coun. Joe Cressy, who represents Ward 20, Trinity-Spadina, calling on the federal and provincial governments to ban the sale of handguns and ammunition in the city.

"I will vote for the gun ban that has been put on the table because I can't imagine why anybody needs to have a gun in Toronto," said Tory in an interview with Dwight Drummond.

He was speaking as council debated a number of anti-gun violence initiatives just days after two people were killed and 13 others were injured in a shooting in the city's Greektown neighbourhood.

A couple of hours after Tory spoke to CBC Toronto, the motion carried on the floor of council by a margin of 41-4.


Citing comments from Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders — who says 50 per cent of illegal guns were purchased domestically through legal channels — Tory also put forward a motion calling on the federal government to strengthen existing laws against gun trafficking and said he supported stiffer sentences for firearms traffickers.

Council began debating several strategies Tuesday, including enhanced surveillance and security measures, youth programming and community violence prevention programs.

The various initiatives would be supported by around $45 million in federal and provincial funding.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mayor-john-tory-voices-support-as-council-votes-for-city-wide-ban-on-handguns-1.4760358
Bugs





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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are doing impossibly stupid thngs ...

There's something they don't want to deal with, and so they're making it into a gun problem. But it isn't a gun control problem.

It's a Moslem'control problem. That's the debate they don't want to have.
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( this article doesn't seem to mention the council's call for a ban on private ownership of some guns such as hand guns in the city )


EDITORIAL: Toronto council almost hits home run on gun violence


Postmedia News




Published:
July 25, 2018


Updated:
July 25, 2018 6:01 AM EDT


Filed Under:

Toronto SUN ›




A steady stream of teens drop off flowers and hug in front of Malvern Collegiate Institute on Tuesday July 24, 2018. Reese Fallon, 18, who was killed in the mass shooting on the Danforth, was a recent graduate of the high school. (Veronica Henri/Toronto Sun/Postmedia Network)



Toronto council for years has taken too much of a hug-a-thug approach to combat gun violence.

Building basketball courts is great, but it’s no answer to endemic gang and criminal behaviour.

Tuesday night, however, in the wake of the tragic shootings on the Danforth, council passed a series of motions intended to begin addressing the proliferation of illegal guns in this city.

They included a motion to immediately hire 100 new police officers, proposed by Councillor Giorgio Mammoliti and passed by council.

Mammoliti also proposed a motion council approved asking the province to change legislation to permit the city’s social housing landlord, Toronto Community Housing Corporation, “to evict people for criminal behaviour specifically related to guns, gangs and drug trafficking.”


This long-overdue change would help TCHC root out the drug dealers, pimps and other parasites who feed off this city’s vulnerable.


Because the former provincial Liberal government refused to change the law, gangs and criminals have been able to set up shop in the projects – getting free rent, recruiting young labour and exploiting and terrorizing residents.

Premier Doug Ford has been a regular visitor to TCHC properties in the city and may take a different view on protecting gang members than the previous government.

Councillor Cesar Palacio meanwhile had his motion carried, proposing TCHC investigate what funding is needed to hire on-site security, 24 hours a day, seven days a week in agency complexes.

And council supported a motion by Mayor John Tory asking Ottawa to change federal legislation to:


1. Include tougher penalties — including mandatory-minimum sentences — for gun traffickers;

2. Direct more resources to tackle domestic firearm trafficking, specifically targeting large single purchasers of firearms; and

3. Implement tougher screening for mental health and intimate partner violence issues for licensed gun owners and those seeking to acquire firearm permits.

Whether Prime Minister Justin Trudeau acts for a change to address a real problem is anyone’s guess.

However, council gutlessly rejected a motion by Mammoliti to reinstate carding.

Gun violence and a growing number of murders and victims has been one consequence of council banning police from making street checks. While unfettered and unaccountable checks and harassment was clearly unacceptable, so is giving thugs and criminals free rein.

We still need a street check system that works

https://torontosun.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-toronto-council-almost-hits-home-run-on-gun-violence
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now it is morphing from a gun control issue to a gang violence issue, all the while ignoring the Moslem aspect of the problem.

A lot of good suggestion on the list. Particularly about kicking the thugs out of public housing. But that has nothing to do with this.

We need answers, and our public officials are lying and evading the truth.
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( Brian Lilley says that the claim that 50% of guns used in crime are sourced from Canada cannot actually be proven and may in fact be made up entirely by anti gun and liberal activists )



No, 50% of guns used in crime are not from Canada

July 25, 2018 Brian Lilley Canadian Politics 0
.

Justin Trudeau calls questions about ISIS executioner divisive


     .

There is a talking point in heavy use by the Trudeau government, police forces and gun control activists. It claims that 50% of guns used in crime in Canada are stolen from law abiding Canadian gun owners.

This false factoid has shown up in media reports for quite some time now and showed up again this week in the wake of the Danforth shooting.


Toronto Mayor John Tory even made the claim in an op-ed for the Toronto Sun back in March.

Here is the problem, it is fake news.

What is the source of this fact that gets repeated over and over again?

Dennis Young, the veteran researcher and former Parliament Hill staffer says there is no source, well other than a highly taken out of context footnote from an RCMP document dating back to 2016.

Young obtained the document through Access to Information and posted it to his website. At the bottom of page 17 you see this nugget about guns seized in Western Canada.



So this is about a small subset of guns seized in Western Canada. Of 783 trace requests, just 229 could be traced and 50% of those traced were domestically sourced.


That does not equal 50% of all guns used in crime in Canada.

Lies get repeated.

Yet this canard is repeated over and over again by officials at the highest levels.

Just this year Conservative MP Larry Macguire tried to find out what information the federal government had on this claim. He asked an Order Paper question, an official request through Parliament, to find out how many guns seized by police were domestically sourced and how many were from outside the country.

The response from the Canadian Firearms Information System, which all police services use, was pretty simple.

“The Canadian Firearms Information System does not collect the requested information.”

Young has asked Stats Canada for information to back up this claim and found nothing. In fact at the guns and gangs summit where Ralph Goodale said more and more guns are domestically sourced, a Stats Can official was quoted as saying, “We don’t know the origin of firearms involved in gun crime in Canada.”

Gun control, especially after a horrific shooting, is an incredibly emotional issue but facts still matter.

The gun control lobby wants to use this event to make it harder for Canadians that want to go shooting at the range to do so even though CBC is reporting that this was an illegal gun from the United States.

If someone can find me an actual report, with actual statistics that is in the public domain supporting this claim about domestically sourced guns then I will post it.

Until then, our politicians and the media should stop repeating claims that aren’t backed up with solid evidence.

http://brianlilley.com/no-50-o.....om-canada/
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for Brian Lilley! Some good old-fashioned fact-digging.

What this says to me is that roughly two-thirds of guns can't be traced to an owner.

Why is this? Perhaps the serial numbers have been filed off, or something like that. Or that they are 'imported in a way that does not leave a paper trail. All of it suggests nefarious purposes. The very fact that they are untraceable means, in most cases, that these handguns are dedicated to criminal use. If they are a recent model, like a Glock, it would almost certainly be smuggled into the country.
RCO





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

( its also been revealed the hand gun used in the shooting was illegal in Canada and originally from the US , it also likely came from a gang related source )


Toronto shooter's gun was illegal, originally from U.S.: source


CTVNews.ca Staff
Published Wednesday, July 25, 2018 9:08AM EDT
Last Updated Wednesday, July 25, 2018 10:13AM EDT


The gun used to shoot 15 people on a busy Toronto street was likely obtained from a “gang-related source,” according to a person familiar with the case.

CP24 safety specialist Cam Woolley says a police source has told him the semi-automatic handgun used in the shooting is illegal in Canada and was originally from the United States. American authorities are helping track the gun’s exact origin.

Faisal Hussain opened fire on Danforth Avenue in Toronto Sunday night, killing two people and wounding 13 others.



Deadly shooting on the Danforth
Police are seen around the scene of a shooting in east Toronto, on Monday, July 23, 2018. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Christopher Katsarov

The shooting has set off a debate about gun control in Canada’s largest city and across the country. Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale has said that the federal government was already considering changes to Canada’s gun laws prior to Sunday’s attack.

Toronto city councillors voted Tuesday in favour of a number of initiatives aimed at curbing gun violence, including hiring 100 new police officers, installing new security cameras and gunshot-detecting microphones in the city, and increasing funding for youth and mental health initiatives.

Councillors also voted to request that the provincial and federal governments ban the sale of handguns and ammunition in Toronto. Mayor John Tory has suggested that he would be in favour of stricter regulations, commenting that he does not see any reason for anybody to possess a gun in Toronto.

CTV public safety analyst Chris Lewis, a former commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police, says it would be difficult for the city to impose such a ban unilaterally. As gun crimes are regulated by the federal government, the city’s only option would be to put a gun ban into a bylaw, putting offences on the same level as parking violations.

“There’s not a lot of bite there,” Lewis told CTV’s Your Morning.

Instead, Lewis says, any serious action on gun control would have to come from the federal government.

“We have to find a way to close loopholes so people who shouldn’t have guns don’t get them,” he said.

Possible measures the government could look at, according to Lewis, include increasing the depth and frequency of background checks on gun owners and giving doctors the ability to contact police if they believe a patient’s mental health status may make them a threat to themselves or others.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that the guy was mentally tortured?

This is a guy, mentally tortured as he might be, who somehow managed to buy an imported semiautomatic handgun from someone without paperwork ... (which I can't do) ... and, in the midst of a pounding headache, seeks relief by loading up his gun and another couple of clips, catching a bus, to a neighbourhood that 'probably takes half an hour to get to ... and foams over? That's what you want me to believe?

On the little bit of video, he looked like he was having fun.

When do we wake up? Shouldn't our journalists check out one other obvious angle?
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Quote:

If you want to get illegal weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them you need to take a hard look at increasing the CBSA budget for officers and searches.


As reported by the Natl Post, the issue rising is it is legal gun owners selling them , not the legal importing of same.
If so, CBSA can do bupkiss.


Lets start with the article;
https://nationalpost.com/news/illegal-guns-sourced-in-canada-surge-compared-to-those-smuggled-from-u-s

I want to assure I am citing the correct one.

The source is a Toronto Detective so I am going to assume the information is Toronto-centic, as there are no hard and fast numbers just "more than 40 cases in recent years"

I would really welcome more information; but I would imagine that will come around year end as it usually does.

Even if we accept the 50% number in Toronto, my original point still stands;

You cannot have a meaningful discussion about reducing gun violence across the country without any major address to a source of "half" the weapons used in Toronto in these crimes.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
Good for Brian Lilley! Some good old-fashioned fact-digging.

What this says to me is that roughly two-thirds of guns can't be traced to an owner.

Why is this? Perhaps the serial numbers have been filed off, or something like that. Or that they are 'imported in a way that does not leave a paper trail. All of it suggests nefarious purposes. The very fact that they are untraceable means, in most cases, that these handguns are dedicated to criminal use. If they are a recent model, like a Glock, it would almost certainly be smuggled into the country.


There is a common sense factor that has to come into play here as well;

For you to determine its a gun from within Canada the serial number needs to be registered on a certificate per the Firearms Act which is tied to someones PAL license. The traceability of restricted weapons in Canada is pretty strong.

If the issue of legal owners selling weapons is that common you have a whole lot of stupid legal gun owners out there selling weapons traceable to them.

Lilley is the only one thus far who is actually providing some details and numbers which I appreciate at least.

The challenge aside from the US is the amount of Chinese replicas that are coming into both Canada and the US, there are a lot of shipping containers that hit our Western Ports every day.
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2 killed, many injured in Toronto shooting

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