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Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
Quote:
Six female Democratic senators on Wednesday called for Sen. Al Franken to resign in the wake of multiple sexual misconduct complaints made against the Minnesota lawmaker.

Sens. Claire McCaskill, Maggie Hassan, Kirsten Gillibrand, Patty Murray, Mazie K. Hirono and Kamala Harris all called for Franken to step down.

The women did not mince words.

“Sexual harassment and misconduct should not be allowed by anyone and should not occur anywhere. I believe the best thing for Senator Franken to do is step down,” Harris, D-Calif., said.


http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....ances.html


Can it be? Is it possible? Have the scales dropped from these women's eyes? Have they been to Lourdes? Can it be the first miracle of the 21st century? Has Feminism gone bi-partisan?

I pinch myself. Al Franken "stepping down"? Sorry, Ms. Harris ... do you know what a sweet gig being the junior senator from Wisconsin is? It's Fat Cat City.

But, detest Al 'Franken as I might, what has he done that deserves depriving him of his livelihood? The picture looks like teenagers-clowning-around pictures. There was only the most cursory sex involved, and he stopped when he was told to stop. It's in the category of boorish behaviour not sex crime.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
It's in the category of boorish behaviour not sex crime.

And thats why he isnt being charged with any crime.

All around, this movement is good. Left right centre , dont care, if you dicked around and are now caught out, so be it.

The amount of wealth lost will make many a man think twice, yet many will still feel "not me, cannot be caught" a la Lauer et al.

Im waiting for the fashion industry to become news, now there are some real predators of underage girls.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you suffer from too much optimism. There's a lot of mountain-out-of-molehill-making in this area. I think men are massively intimidated from even talking about it in mixed company.

Think of Ghomeshi, and the two Liberal MPs that Trudeau used so badly. If it happening at that level, imagine how many whispered complaints are made to HR ... and some guy's career is suddenly changed for no clear reason.

Or think of what 'sexual assault' really is, in its legal definition. On the ground, in Canada, if a woman goes to the police, they will assume what she says is true. And without any investigation they might arrest him.

According to the FBI, which has used standard definitions to track crimes for decades, "rape" -- or what we would call sexual assault -- is not only one of the most under-reported crimes, it is also one of the most falsely-reported crimes.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Franken is slated to make a speech from the Senate Floor shortly;

If he were to step aside, Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton (D) would get to pick his replacement with a special election being held in 2018 to determine who would serve out the last two years of his term (Both Minnesota Senate Seats would be up in 2018 if this was the case)

Governor Dayton would likely select Lt. Gov. Tina Smith to fill the spot if you believe the reports.

Even if he doesn't step down, I would imagine he will face a massive primary challenge in 2020 with the DNC likely lining up behind someone else.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has become a witch-hunt. There's no evidence. A different case, and another guy who I detest, but think of Weiner, who flashed pictures of his body around, not naked pictures -- and he is in a US federal prison, ruined. Is that proportionate? The girls involved could have blocked his calls, but they didn't, and for all we know, may have initiated them.

I feel the same about Franken. These people don't have my politics, they don't have my style, my manners, whatever. I feel almost no common humanity with them. But I still think this is a witch-hunt, and any prominent man is now a potential target.

Just being revealed amounts to a guilty verdict as far as the rest of your life is concerned. What the Democrats do is their business, in a way, but I still think that common decency requires some kind of proof before you terminate people's livelihood. Harvey isn't coming back, according to what 'everybody knows'. Careers are being ended, often on flimsy grounds. To me, it is like a cleansing ritual, as if we were actually perging the world of lust. Magic thinking.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
I think men are massively intimidated from even talking about it in mixed company.

No evidence of this that I can see.

I can only imagine those that would be intimidated are the ones who have a reason.
Quote:

On the ground, in Canada, if a woman goes to the police, they will assume what she says is true. And without any investigation they might arrest him.

Categorically false.

I know plenty of women who were sexually assaulted/raped who were denied justice for various reasons .

Gee.....I wonder why so many women dont report when we have this kind of thinking.
Quote:

According to the FBI, which has used standard definitions to track crimes for decades, "rape" -- or what we would call sexual assault -- is not only one of the most under-reported crimes, it is also one of the most falsely-reported crimes.

Sure would like to see that data since there is reams of it that disagree with the last part.

2% of rapes are false reports . Still not good enough for me. As false reports go I imagine there are far more incidents of crime that are false. Stolen cars, stolen items someone has lost etc.
Insurance companies pay out a ton of money for items that were never lost nor stolen.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., says he will be resigning from the Senate amid multiple accusations of sexual misconduct.

On Wednesday, about two-thirds of the Democrats in the Senate — including almost all of the women in the Senate Democratic Caucus — called for Franken to step down. Among those urging him to resign were the top three Democrats in the chamber — Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York, Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and Sen. Patty Murray of Washington. In addition, Tom Perez, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, also called for Franken to step down.


https://www.npr.org/2017/12/07/568909860/sen-al-franken-to-make-announcement-amid-calls-for-him-to-resign
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
This has become a witch-hunt. There's no evidence. A different case, and another guy who I detest, but think of Weiner, who flashed pictures of his body around, not naked pictures -- and he is in a US federal prison, ruined. Is that proportionate? The girls involved could have blocked his calls, but they didn't, and for all we know, may have initiated them.

Man oh man. This is a load of claptrap , even for you.

Now, I dont believe for a second you believe any of what you just wrote, IF...you know the story about Anthony Weiner.

He pled guilty to sending obscene material to a minor.

A MINOR ! And he knew she was.
Three of his apps delete images when closed, much speculation that he sent dick pics to underage girls.

Let me guess, you'd shrug that off if some adult was sexting your teenage daughter?

I seriously doubt that.
Quote:

I feel the same about Franken. These people don't have my politics, they don't have my style, my manners, whatever. I feel almost no common humanity with them. But I still think this is a witch-hunt, and any prominent man is now a potential target.

Just being revealed amounts to a guilty verdict as far as the rest of your life is concerned. What the Democrats do is their business, in a way, but I still think that common decency requires some kind of proof before you terminate people's livelihood. Harvey isn't coming back, according to what 'everybody knows'. Careers are being ended, often on flimsy grounds. To me, it is like a cleansing ritual, as if we were actually perging the world of lust. Magic thinking.

First off, successful and powerful men have always been a target for women . (thats not saying targetted for sex assault etc, just targeted)

Franken, Weiner, Weinstein, Spacey, Louis CK all have something in common.

They admitted their guilt. Ergo their livelihood was terminated. As it should be.

If any of these men and others, felt they were being hoodwinked then they fight back.

Seems most of the ones lately dont bother.

We both know why. But only one of us wants to see that, apparently better to blame the victims I guess.

Not...cool.
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
Franken is slated to make a speech from the Senate Floor shortly;

If he were to step aside, Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton (D) would get to pick his replacement with a special election being held in 2018 to determine who would serve out the last two years of his term (Both Minnesota Senate Seats would be up in 2018 if this was the case)

Governor Dayton would likely select Lt. Gov. Tina Smith to fill the spot if you believe the reports.

Even if he doesn't step down, I would imagine he will face a massive primary challenge in 2020 with the DNC likely lining up behind someone else.


Al franken has resigned from the US senate , which isn't a susprise as it was rumoured to be coming .

it sets up an interesting special election in Minnesota considered to be a purple state ? with the other incumbent democratic senator seen as safe , his open seat is likely to be the one where there is a real race . and if you were a republican challenger it make the most sense to run in but its a little early to determine what sort of race will develop in Minnesota
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Responding to TC: In the actual case, Wiener went through the legal system, so he isn't the best example. But what you are ignoring is that there never was any prospect of a threat or compulsion, or even that the young 15-year-old woman who got the emails being actually besmirched by these pictures. How is it different than what the kids are doing amongst themselves? They even have a name for it, sexting. How is it different from plain pornography?

What TC ignores is the idea of proportionality. What was Weiner actually charged with? Communicating with a minor and encouraging her to show more photos. They were in a consensual exchange. But they both were anonymous and remote from each other physically, and there is no evidence that Weiner tried to meet these girls.

In any case, it's not the ugliness of the act, it's the proportionality of the penalty. Weinger has to register as a sex criminal at any place where he works of lives for the rest of his life. And he is serving a 21-month sentence while Bill Clinton goes free. In his circles, he's destroyed. What about the girls? How do you think these people contacted each other? They probably went to a site where people who are into sexting are apt to go. Does she bear any culpability?

Or do we have to maintain this Victorian imagery that pretends that virginity is a possession whose value is beyond paying?


Last edited by Bugs on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:
But what you are ignoring is that there never was any prospect of a threat or compulsion, or even that the young 15-year-old woman who got the emails being actually besmirched by these pictures.

She is 15. Do you need it spelled out to you?

Any adult sexting my 15 yr old daughter would face the wrath of 5.
Quote:

How is it different that what the kids are doing amongst themselves? They even have a name for it, sexting. How is it different from plain pornography?

Re-read you first sentence. Then answer your own question.

Kids doing things amongst themselves is not even close to what adults do with kids.

A 16 yr old tecxting dick pics to his 15 yr old GF is entirely diofferent than a 34 yr old man sexting a 15.
HOw is this even remotely hard to understand? Dont you have kids?
Quote:

What TC ignores is the idea of proportionality. What was Weiner actually charged with?

I gave you the charge earlier. Not sure why you dont read these posts.
Quote:
Communicating with a minor and encouraging her to show more photos. They were in a consensual exchange. But they both were anonymous and remote from each other physically, and there is no evidence that Weiner tried to meet these girls.

So...he didnt meet them.

And once again....she is 15 and he is 34+.

'Nuff said .
Quote:

In any case, it's not the ugliness of the act, it's the proportionality of the penalty. Weinger has to register as a sex criminal at any place where he works of lives for the rest of his life. And he is serving a 21-month sentence while Bill Clinton goes free. In his circles, he's destroyed. What about the girls? How do you think these people contacted each other? They probably went to a site where people who are into sexting are apt to go. Does she bear any culpability?

A lot to answer here.
Proportionality is on par. Dont do the crime if ya cant do the time.
Reg'd sex offender ! Good for him. seems apt considering he is one. You could make a case (but wont) about guys being on the regd sex offender list being put there for urinating in public, but to hang ones hat on an older dude sexting a 15 yr old is where you want to die on this hill ?

Knock your self out. And remain lonely.

Culpability ? In a sense she probably does and was probably raised better than this. However , the legal system recognizes that minors have different maturity timelines but the law has to prevail over all equally.

In a legal sense she has zero culpability. As it should be.

Culpability is an attempt to blame the victim. See it too often.
Quote:

Or do we have to maintain this Victorian imagery that pretends that virginity is a possession whose value is beyond paying?
No idea what you mean.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TC sez:
Quote:
A 16 yr old tecxting dick pics to his 15 yr old GF is entirely diofferent than a 34 yr old man sexting a 15.
HOw is this even remotely hard to understand?

How?

You sputter away, faking the feelings of righteous soul confronting age. But you dont have any real reason for your bigotry. You have exactly the same opinions that one would predict.

Your only problem with this is the age difference? Why? You are a guy who thinks it's OK for the ex A-G of Ontario to kill people whenever he has an incidence of road rage. Who cares about your judgement? It's entirely based on which side you're on. You sleep with an abortionist, for Christ's sake.

You have to give us real reasons, not the strange feelings that flit through your brain when you see the name Bugs.

As for proportionality, we'd have to think of what other crimes one would have to commit in the same state to get 21 months in a FEDERAL facility. How much money would you have to steal, as a first time white offender at 52 years of age who has remorse and had a big career ... how big a crime would such a person have to commit to get 21 months in New York State?

I wish I knew the answer. Maybe you can make some shit up and pretend it proves your point.
cosmostein





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RCO wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
Franken is slated to make a speech from the Senate Floor shortly;

If he were to step aside, Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton (D) would get to pick his replacement with a special election being held in 2018 to determine who would serve out the last two years of his term (Both Minnesota Senate Seats would be up in 2018 if this was the case)

Governor Dayton would likely select Lt. Gov. Tina Smith to fill the spot if you believe the reports.

Even if he doesn't step down, I would imagine he will face a massive primary challenge in 2020 with the DNC likely lining up behind someone else.


Al franken has resigned from the US senate , which isn't a susprise as it was rumoured to be coming .

it sets up an interesting special election in Minnesota considered to be a purple state ? with the other incumbent democratic senator seen as safe , his open seat is likely to be the one where there is a real race . and if you were a republican challenger it make the most sense to run in but its a little early to determine what sort of race will develop in Minnesota


I don't know the rules around the Special Election;
The Governor will pick a replacement, but does the special election get held with the midterms in November or would it be held sooner?
RCO





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:
RCO wrote:
cosmostein wrote:
Franken is slated to make a speech from the Senate Floor shortly;

If he were to step aside, Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton (D) would get to pick his replacement with a special election being held in 2018 to determine who would serve out the last two years of his term (Both Minnesota Senate Seats would be up in 2018 if this was the case)

Governor Dayton would likely select Lt. Gov. Tina Smith to fill the spot if you believe the reports.

Even if he doesn't step down, I would imagine he will face a massive primary challenge in 2020 with the DNC likely lining up behind someone else.


Al franken has resigned from the US senate , which isn't a susprise as it was rumoured to be coming .

it sets up an interesting special election in Minnesota considered to be a purple state ? with the other incumbent democratic senator seen as safe , his open seat is likely to be the one where there is a real race . and if you were a republican challenger it make the most sense to run in but its a little early to determine what sort of race will develop in Minnesota


I don't know the rules around the Special Election;
The Governor will pick a replacement, but does the special election get held with the midterms in November or would it be held sooner?



from what I saw online its going to happen in Nov 2018 at the same time as the general election .

although its up to the state governor to set the date , I seem to recall the Alabama special election was suppose to happen in Nov 2018 but a new governor decided to move it up to an earlier date and we've seen what disaster that was
Bugs





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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This article outlines the process.

http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....signs.html

Al Franken has not resigned. He says he will resign a few months down the road. This is a snake-in-the-grass move. He has denied at least some of the allegations, in one way or another. He is taking his case to the Ethics committee. But he is saying he will resign down the road -- presumably after the Ethics Committee exonerates him -- if it does.

I don't see, for a moment, someone denying they committed the offending acts, and then resigning. It doesn't fit, somehow.

I think the Ethics committee will treat him kindly, because his offenses seem to be at the fanny-patting level. And then he will hope it will go away. And maybe it will ...
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