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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: O'Toole rips libertarian website run by Bernier supporter Reply with quote

‘Some people just can’t leave the campaign behind’: O’Toole rips libertarian website run by Bernier supporters

A handful of other Tory MPs either endorsed or shrugged off the new third-party group, Conservative Futures.

PUBLISHED : Wednesday, July 12, 2017 12:00 AM

Conservative MP and former leadership candidate Erin O’Toole has harsh words for a new pro-libertarian organization started by a former aide to Maxime Bernier, calling it a continuation of Mr. Bernier’s campaign for the Conservative Party leadership even after that race wrapped with a victory for Andrew Scheer in May.

“All campaigns need to step away for a while, including that one,” said Mr. O’Toole, who came in third in the contest, just behind Mr. Bernier.

The Conservative Party itself, and a handful of other Tory MPs, either endorsed or shrugged off the new third-party group, Conservative Futures, as another avenue to spread conservative ideas.

The group could also help conservatives fight back against influence from third-party groups supporting left-leaning parties, said Conservative MP Alex Nuttall (Barrie-Springwater-Oro Medonte, Ont.), who supported Mr. Bernier (Beauce, Que.) in the leadership race and penned a blog post for the recently launched Conservative Futures website.

A coalition of centre-left interests pooled money in 2015 under the banner of Engage Canada to run third-party attack ads on former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper before the writ dropped for that year’s election.

However, Conservative MP Brad Trost (Saskatoon-University, Sask.) who also ran for the party leadership and came in fourth, said while he supported and ran on many of the policies espoused by Conservative Futures, “There’s going to be questions asked, because it’s all Maxime Bernier’s old campaign team: ‘Is this his campaign team in waiting?’” for a future leadership race, he said.

“I think they’re going to have to address that question, and reassure Andrew Scheer and his people that they’re not seeking to undermine his leadership.”

‘I don’t really understand the motive’

Conservative Futures is an attempt to build a movement in Canada for libertarian ideas—smaller government and freer markets—said Brian Storseth, a former Conservative MP and former Team Bernier campaign co-chair, who sits on the board of the new non-profit organization. The website includes campaigns targeting Canada’s gun laws and corporate welfare, for instance. It features opinion pieces by conservative activists.

“What we want to do is push forward these ideas, gather Canadians to support these ideas, and effect change,” he said. [....]

For my part, I am pleased that O'Toole failed to become leader. What, praytell, is wrong with a dedicated advocate from another wing of the party running a website to promote his views?

What O'Toole overlooks is that it is supposed to be the special virtue of our tattered 'democracy' that some -- even if a very very very few -- policy ideas should come from outside political parties. How is it that we are building extra bathrooms in schools across Ontario (at least) but we can't look at things through a libertarian lens?

O'Toole thinks he's an officer, and the rest of us are under his command. Which is fatal in electoral politics where is is essential to at least pretend the electorate is the boss.


I don't know anything about the website, but if Conservatives ever expect to become the 'natural governing party', the default choice, they have to understand that they need to be competitive in Quebec.

That should be'onr of their prime directives. Ditto with the Maritimes.

And how are you going to do that without a broad-based attack on the policy ideas that prevail? Right now, who has a clear idea of how the Conservative approach is any different to the Liberal one -- other than a relatively stonger tendency to balance the budget?

And if that's the case, we can expect an election cycle in which the Conservatives' historic role will be to take away the punchbowl after the drunken party has reached its peak. They will restore discipline in government when crises arrive.

And when things return to a kind of normalcy, some pleasant looking twirp will be promoted as 'the face of the Liberal Party, by a bunch of apparatchiks who are intent on figuring out how to enrich themselves while destroying the economy.

Again and again, like groundhog day, the same tiresome cycle!

O'Toole simply wants no ferment His impulse is to stifle alternative ideas.

No, in the public square, the best way of fighting an idea you don't like is with a better idea.

Over to you, Mr O'Toole. What ideas do you have that are better than Berniers? What proposals of Conservative Futures do you dispute?

Maybe O'Toole prefers stifling because his own cupboard is bare?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that O'Toole went too far in a damning a group of individuals who are still a branch of the party and have every right to be critical of its policies.

However I do echo Brad Trost's sentiments.
Dion was destine to fail because Ignatieff and Rae effectively maintained a leadership campaign simmering on the back-burner during his entire tenure as leader. It hampered fundraising and it hampered candidate recruitment for the Liberals.

If its Bernier's senior campaign team (who the article implies are running the site) is effectively running a 2020 leadership campaign today (as Trost in implying) then I can see why Trost has concerns. If folks in the party are expecting a Liberal Majority in 2019 then chances are it will happen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, on the one hand, you are willing to suppress the social conservatives within the party, and now you want to suppress the libertarian wing as well. Is that a path to unity?

It could as easily be a path to irrelevance and political marginalization.

To me, this is where real political leadership comes into it. A leader should be able to develop a program, or a role, that keeps his coalition together.

What are the key elements of social conservatism and libertarianism? Don't they come together in the reduction of the size and scope of government? You going to tell me there isn't common ground?

It's that everybody in the Conservative Party is afraid of the urban vote, which they aren't going to get anyway.

The problem with Scheer -- it seems to me -- is he has no fire and no political vision. Look at his performance over the latest Khadr chapter. Poor. He hasn't put the spotlight on the fact that it was the Martin and Chretien administration's decisions that are now being punished.

The really offensive part of it is the size of the award. Scheer hasn't put it in proportion to what a Canadian soldier would get if he had a permanent physical disability -- say, having had his legs blow to pieces.

Scheer hasn't given voice to the outrage that mainstream Canadians feel. He even let Trudeau get away with claiming the charter protected us all ... what a load! If it had protected us, it would have punished the perps, not recompensed the victim with the general public's money. If it protected us, we'd still have heterosexual marriage.

This isn't what we want. Scheer has to recognize that Bernier got 49% of the support within the party, and that he isn't willing to support social conservatism with policy. That's the reality. He should be approaching him to be co-leader, a leadership tag-team.

The trouble is O'Toole and Scheer are both bureaucrats. I don't mean there's anything wrong with them, it's simply that they're managerial rather than entrepreneurial. Managers dislike anything they can't control or affect and are risk-adverse. They like conformity, in principle. O'Toole is even a military man.

So here we are, at one of the great turning points in history in any of our lifetimes -- where a bunch of 40 year trends are about to be reversed -- and we have a cautious, risk-adverse, imagination-lacking opposition party that's going to stop a gang of feckless, extravagantly ideological apparatchiks who are will spend anything, say anything, and who have the media on their side? And doing a McGuinty at a federal level, to make it worse?

It's early yet. It's an inauspicious opening for Scheer, and perhaps a lost opportunity. But if they move to close down Bernier, they will be acting out the separatist claims about the way the Anglos treat the French-speaking. You think it won't get noticed? Here, have another toke ...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really view this as suppression;
More like former leadership candidates are being whiney and airing their concerns in public. Has the site been taken down as a result? I don't believe it has.

This seems more like members of the party throwing temper tantrums in public.

If Bernier or his campaign team members were expelled from the party we would be having a very different conversation about suppression.

But, if the Bernier campaign team from the leadership race is still actively campaigning in the background I can see why folks in the party like Trost have an issue with it.

While that is the accusation being made, no one has provided evidence of it other than a website run by members of the Bernier campaign.

The challenge we have is that we are faced with a collection of bad options;

Would I rather have Bernier running the show?
Sure, I felt that the Bernier / O'Leary tandem was the best possible route forward as long as Bernier was the leader.

The problem is that short of a coup prior to 2019 election, the leader the party has is the leader they are walking into 2019 with.

Would co-leadership work?
I don't see why it wouldn't. It worked with Harper and MacKay.

However are we sure that its Scheer rebuffing Bernier and not vice versa?

Bernier has little incentive to assist Scheer if his goal is still party leadership;
If the Tories lose in 2019 and the Liberals secure a second majority unless Peter MacKay decides to enter the fray I would imagine Bernier becomes a first ballot winner in 2020.

So do I ride with Scheer in hopes that this imperfect leader wins in 2019?
Or do I hope for Trudeau in 2019 so I get the leader I want in time for 2023?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't about a more perfect leader. It's about having a leader that understands that a political party, particularly when its in opposition, is a coalition of groups. And getting as many of those groups behind your party is step one in getting power.

Of course we all want Justin to be deposed and a Conservative to replace him. But there is also the good of the country to consider, and the way history is unfolding at the moment.

It's always as if we don't ever get to those questions. What do Conservatives hope to achieve? The answer always seems to be: that's up to the leader.

I think it is incumbent on Scheer to keep his coalition together, and make it grow. He hasn't made the obvious move towards Bernier -- at least not in any public way -- and why wouldn't it be public if it were underway?

Does Scheer think he has an office, and is owed a duty of obedience? Does he confuse himself with the pope, and expect Bernier to kiss his ring? On the basis of a 51-49 vote split? Good luck with that.

We already know he wasn't very effective in attacking the big wet kiss Trudeau gave Khadr. I don't hear you disagreeing on that. If Scheer goes on to alienate Bernier -- who is not doing anything wrong -- we chose wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only politician whose stance I was pleased with during the Khadr situation was Stephen Harper. Everyone else left me wanting.

Is there any evidence that Scheer has demanded that Bernier capitulate to him?
We seem to be speculating, I also haven't seen Scheer chiming in on this matter.

I don't know the solution the problem at hand;
If Bernier is running a campaign in the background its a problem, if other former candidates are imply he is running a campaign in the background when he isn't its an equally big problem.

The Conservatives have an East of Ontario problem;
It would be utter idiocy of Scheer not to want to work with Bernier or vice versa to want to at least recruit strong candidates in Quebec unless he has someone else in mind to be his Quebec Lieutenant which based on the rank file I don't see.

If the view from both is going to be that one got 51 and the other got 49 therefore no one is reaching out to the other out of whatever rationale then we are all screwed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on, Cosmo ... I am not preparing a legal case. You seem to think if I can't prove the Scheer is making a mistake means he isn't making a mistake? Or that I have anything to do with it?

No, just put yourself in the leadership imaginatively, and what would you want to do after you squeak by a 'win' with a voting system that makes sure those who don't vote Conservative are over-represented? Scheer doesn't even know that he has the rank and file Conservatives behind him. Not really.

A smart guy would make sure his main rivals saw a future for themselves in his government.

Wouldn't you make sure your biggest rival and you were on the same page if you had the laadership? Look at how Harper always gave Peter MacKay whatever role he wanted. To MacKay's credit, he didn't exploit the opportunity to the max. But it is only political common sense.

I assume the other participants in this board have very little sense of how the world is changing, but changing it is, and fast. On top of that, Canada is being changed into something that I doubt any of us want. Yet I get no sense of issue, and very little agenda, with the Conservative Party of Canada. If I asked what Conservatives hope to achieve, starting in 2020, I think I'd get an answer like ... uh, I dunno, I support whatever the leader wants to do.

At least Meech Lake oriented the right into a program that had genuine grassroots support. But a political generation later, all we get is ... um ... I'm just gonna do what the other guy did when he was leader.

We will see, presumably, what happens. But I would really like to see the argument against this organization spelled out. Not the appeal to loyalty that Baldy O'Toole suggested. What possible objection could anyone have? Other than, of course, the other guy is liasoning with it?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would circle back to my original thought;

Why are you so confident its Scheer not approaching Bernier and not Bernier having little interest in playing number two to Scheer?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's the responsibility of the leader, particularly in this case with the weird election rules that were imposed on us to make sure that the geographical areas that never vote Conservative are adequately represented (???) -- those factors leave a big question mark hanging over the leader. Is he really the choice of the group he represents?

But for all I know, the same could be said of Bernier. It's not Scheer's fault.

What would I have liked to see? Three days after the anointed one ascended to the throne, there would be a great public event alerting the public to the fact that Bernier sat at the Right Hand of the Saviour -- that Scheer and Bernier were tag-team mates, a new brand politically, and that Bernier was the political boss of Quebec. The point would be that the Conservatives would be a true partnership of the two founding peoples (at least for the time being) just like Canada is.

And I would start looking for a seat for Kevin O'Leary. You want him on the list the reporters make of people to call when they want a statement.

Then, when the Khadr announcement came, both leaders would go off, asking in their different ways what kind of madness has infected the Court of Saint Justin? With both Berbier and Scheer acting like leaders, each fashioning the attack that was most effective in their own language/region, and worry about consistency later.

(Wouldn't it have been nice to hear what O'Leary had to say about the Khadr situation?)

And, of course, we'd all be making the point, every chance we got, that Justin's pie-in-the-sky economic plan isn't working, and is leaving the future generation (who cares about them?) saddled with this generation's benefits bill -- plus interest, of course. I'd call it "the Liberal legacy."

Something like that. Lotta noise, razz-ma-tazz.

As it is, Justin is getting coverage of his Stampede performance and Scheer is not. What about that? Have we got another Joe Clark on our hands?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he reached out and was largely rebuffed, I don't think we would be reading about that in the Post.

If I am Maxime Bernier I would at least consider playing the odds;
He is 54 years old, will be 56/57 by the time the next potential leadership race occurs after the 2019 election where we would be a front-runner by miles.

If Bernier wants to be Prime Minister helping Scheer get elected to the job effectively eliminates his chances of ever doing so.

I think where we largely agree is that the last month has been rather wanting;
We don't seem to be getting that energy we want.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's our answer ... I would say this is what being rebuffed looks like.

Scheer unveils 'regional, gender diverse' House leadership team
Ontario Conservative MP Lisa Raitt named deputy leader
By John Paul Tasker, CBC News Posted: Jul 19, 2017 1:54 PM ET Last Updated: Jul 20, 2017 1:59 PM ET

Conservative Party Leader Andrew Scheer is unveiling his House leadership team in Ottawa today, and at least two familiar faces will assume senior posts, CBC News has learned.

Scheer will present a "regionally and gender diverse team," but he will be partially hampered by the fact the party returned no MPs in either Atlantic Canada or the North in the 2015 election. Eighteen of the 99 Tories elected are women, or roughly 18 per cent of the caucus.

Ontario MP Lisa Raitt will be appointed deputy leader, sources told CBC News. The Cape Breton native, a deft communicator who has performed well in question period while in opposition, will be given a "meaningful mandate" and staff to support her work.

Raitt, who ran against Scheer but ultimately placed eighth on the first ballot, said publicly ahead of the vote that she had picked Scheer as her second choice on the ranked ballot.

While she represents a suburban Toronto-area riding, Raitt has been a vocal advocate for her home region, and fared well in ridings in Nova Scotia during her leadership bid despite a distant finish.

Former interim leader Rona Ambrose tapped Raitt to serve as her finance critic, but the former transport minister stepped away from that role after jumping into the race.

Manitoba MP Candice Bergen will also be part of the five-member team that will be unveiled.

Bergen will be recognized for the "tremendous job" she did as House leader under Ambrose, as she was seen as wielding an "iron fist with a velvet glove" in her pointed attacks on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his cabinet, a Conservative source, speaking on background, said.

Bergen became House leader after Scheer stepped down to run in the race to replace Stephen Harper as permanent leader. Bergen has squared off with Liberal House leader Bardish Chagger; the two squabbled over controversial proposed changes to the House standing orders.

Opposition critic roles traditionally mirror the government cabinet ministers they face on the other side of the House of Commons, including such jobs as deputy leader, finance critic, House leader and critics for all the major government departments.

Quebec MP Alain Reyes, who backed Scheer in the leadership race, will serve as his Quebec lieutenant, and could be tapped for another role on the team. Quebec MP Denis Lebel, who has signalled he will be retiring from the House soon, had previously served as Ambrose's deputy leader.
[emphasis added]

Four female MPs endorsed Scheer in the leadership campaign, including Saskatchewan MP Kelly Block, Quebec MP Sylvie Boucher, Alberta MP Shannon Stubbs, and Saskatchewan MP Cathay Wagantall. One of these women could also be rewarded for their early support of the eventual leader.

Half of the prime minister's cabinet are women.

With a file from the CBC's Rosemary Barton

This decision says two things to me: first, I guess that settles Bernier's hash. It's not that there's anything wrong with Lisa Raitt, but what chance for 'growth' does that encourage? By handing Bernier this shit-sandwich, Scheer has told Quebec to expect no change from the traditional PCs as far as Quebec is concerned.

The second thing it says to me -- I worry that in Andrew Scheer, we have another Joe Clark. He's doing a "me too" on women in the cabinet, why on earth??? Just like Joe, once again restricting the already shallow pool of talent they have in their elected members and demoralizing male MPs who have ambition and talent ... what next?

Perhaps Scheer should announce that he means to give his 'inner transsexual' full range, and start wearing kilts ...

Does anybody know if Scheer stands for anything beyond blandness in his administration? These shadow cabinet choices say to me that he's taking over the party, and those who don't like it should leave.
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O'Toole rips libertarian website run by Bernier supporter

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