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cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Quote:
— but they’ll still be buying black market marijuana once it’s legal, just like they purchase contraband cigarettes today. And gangs will still be running that business, pricing their product to be cheaper than the regulated, taxed marijuana. It’s economics.


I don't agree with the writer on this.

We have bootleg liquor and it is nowhere on the meter for anyone. Its cheap, powerful and .....well no one really wants it.

Gangs will give up that which does not make them money. The price is up there due to the illegality of the product.


True,
However there is certainly a black and grey market for cigarettes.

As to which side of the supply and demand fence this may fall onto it will be seen.
Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugs wrote:


How about the part where Justin tells the whopper that he isn't interested in making life q little more civilized for 'recreational users'? His purpose is only to save the children by making it legal ... Everyone is a 'recreational user' these days. Even the children.

Well, I get what he and you are saying, however way it is phrased , enough people have a criminal record from Pot use, the costs of incarceration are through the roof and for what?

When you speak of children, I am assuming you mean teenagers? Of course they will try it.
Quote:

If you want to get down on drug, why not put ritalin on the list? Teachers have been drugging boys in public schools with it for decades.

Teachers prescribe and dole out Ritalin ?

Where is this? Certainly not in Ontario.
Toronto Centre





Joined: 12 Feb 2011
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Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmostein wrote:

True,
However there is certainly a black and grey market for cigarettes.

As to which side of the supply and demand fence this may fall onto it will be seen.

There certainly is.

And much of it is driven by the high price of cigs from retail.

Australia is an example to look at. Their imports (illegal) amount to $1.5B in lost revenue and taxes. Proximity to China is close so they can easily be supplied .

A pack of smokes in Aus is now $30 and will hit $40 in a year.
Bugs





Joined: 16 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
Bugs wrote:


How about the part where Justin tells the whopper that he isn't interested in making life q little more civilized for 'recreational users'? His purpose is only to save the children by making it legal ... Everyone is a 'recreational user' these days. Even the children.

Well, I get what he and you are saying, however way it is phrased , enough people have a criminal record from Pot use, the costs of incarceration are through the roof and for what?

When you speak of children, I am assuming you mean teenagers? Of course they will try it.
Quote:

If you want to get down on drug, why not put ritalin on the list? Teachers have been drugging boys in public schools with it for decades.

Teachers prescribe and dole out Ritalin ?

Where is this? Certainly not in Ontario.


Surprise! I agree. The so-called War on Drugs has been a huge failure all over North America. For some kids, smoking reefer is a rite de passage into sexual maturity. But why is it (objectively) so bad? It isn't as deadly as either tobacco or alcohol, and the government is a full partner in those businesses.

We could do with a little democracy on the issue. And some honesty about the issues. If your son isn't doing well at school and is smoking pot all the time, it doesn't follow that the one causes the other. The state is basically throwing a lot of men on the scrap heap these days. Who cares about white Canadian-born youth? We want to make sure that women have jobs as well as the Moslems and Jamaicans.

As for ritalin use ...

Quote:
Last year, more than two million prescriptions for Ritalin and other ADHD drugs were written specifically for children under 17, and at least 75 per cent of them were for young males. Part 3 of a 6-part series.

For school children across the country - most of them boys - taking a drug for attention deficit disorder each morning has become as commonplace as downing a vitamin. But the daily ritual has been quietly growing in Canada, year after year - a trend that's dwarfing rates in other countries and raising disturbing questions about the forces driving it.

Figures compiled for The Globe and Mail by IMS Health, an independent firm that tracks pharmaceutical sales, show prescriptions for Ritalin and other amphetamine-like drugs for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder shot up to 2.9 million in 2009, a jump of more than 55 per cent in four years.

More than two million were written specifically for children under 17 - a leap of 43 per cent since 2005 - and at least 75 per cent of them were for young males - a ratio some see as evidence that society is making a malady of boyhood itself.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....le1762859/


Ritalin, for those who don't know what ritalin is ...

Quote:
What is Ritalin?

Ritalin (methylphenidate) is a central nervous system stimulant. It affects chemicals in the brain and nerves that contribute to hyperactivity and impulse control.

Ritalin is used to treat attention deficit disorder (ADD), attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and narcolepsy.
https://www.drugs.com/ritalin.html


But it's OK, because they give it mostly to boys, and we're throwing them away anyway.
Toronto Centre





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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But why is it (objectively) so bad? It isn't as deadly as either tobacco or alcohol, and the government is a full partner in those businesses.

Some many things I suppose. The hype was believed and it became an evil drug...when in fact the evil drug was what the big pharmos were pushing.

A clear case of opposites.

Add in big payoffs, ignorant society , the Police realizing they could make money from this.

Ive never understood the claims against pot , and would be generally laughing while someone railed against pot......while pulling a drag on a cigarette.
Quote:
If your son isn't doing well at school and is smoking pot all the time, it doesn't follow that the one causes the other.

I am glad you brought this up.

It is likely the number one complaint I hear against pot, the old 'gateway' drug arguement .

It is a foolish argument that should stop the moment one replies w ..."so you are or will be an alcoholic huh? " No amount of discussion can bring them to understand the same theory.
If pot leads to meth/heroin/cocaine/crack....then beer and wine lead to skid row/alcoholism.

The other argument is the tired one of 'oh yeah my buddy was a stoner in high school and his life went nowhere' .

Great, a stoner (mega stoner, all day everyday) in my class would ace every damn test and he was high as a kite. Masters in Chem Engineering followed.
Have to say...I was awed at his ability . He said pot relaxes him and all the formulas fall in to place. (not to advocate but it is an example)

The point I was trying to make is a kid will be a loser or winner on his own merits . If he is a lazy drifter he likely will get into harder shit.

Quote:
Who cares about white Canadian-born youth?

Come on, white didnt have to be in here.

As for ritalin , while I have not studied nor looked for online information, I suspect it is a product of the society we have built.

Do parents have the time like before? Time to be patient and teach patience and awaiting ones turn , be it for anything?
Mom , and dad, arent home as much as kids long ago and there has to be a product of that. I think my age was the last to have Mom home all the time, even though my mom worked p/t once I was 7 or 8 (I think so anyway)
Fast solutions work.....until they dont.

The nature of childhood as most of us know it is long lost on all kids save for those whose parents go to extremes to present a 'long ago' childhood.
What I am trying to say is the world is at their fingertips and they dont know what to do.
My youth, rather summers, was filled w everything yet nothing. No phone, no radio, no TV. I had a boat, a lake and endless forest to play in. If you wanted to play, you had to come up w something, rules, times whatever. But it would be time spent making, or making up, 'things' .

We cannot turn back time and cannnot recapture any of the old ways we lived.

But if parents could spend more time instructing and teaching kids I would hope that the ritalin explosion would subside somewhat.

But............I am not hopeful.
Bugs





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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a corollary to your point on the dangers of marijuana - what would Silicon Valley be without marijuana? It was part and parcel of the computer culture, and those long hours writing code were put in by stoners most of the time.

But then you screw up. What's wrong in being upset about what the education is doing to male students, providing they are not immigrants from the third world? I doubt if it is even something you are aware of. The schools treat Canadian-born white males as defective girls in the lower grades, and as pariahs in universities. If the boy has dark skin, he is exempted, and taught that they should not be like their parents. Their current sneer is to call such people "cis-gendered white males. You could go to UofT, maybe Sydney Smith Hall or whatever it is, and enjoy a hot dog with some of the students, and you would find them largely familiar with the terminology and comfortable with the attitudes.

The contemporary kid typically does not have a childhood like we had. It starts with tv -- not a thing in my childhood. But just watch Paw Patrol, or any of the kids' programs on TVO, particularly the ones for the two year olds ... they model for kids who can hardly talk. in this case, animal characters who are all good multicultural vegetarians who know how to cooperate. Older kids are introduced to a world where all the airline pilots are black. By the time they get to college, they are so wired about racism that you can't even as Giovanni if he's Italian ...

Ritalin use is not a statement on the society we have built. It is a statement on how far educators will go to deny the energy of their male students. It isn't as if they are talking about interruptions to a math class or a spelling class. No, they may be just moving off their "spot" during the health hustle. Back in those balmy days of my youth, class sizes were kept under 45, and the teacher could be expected to teach two grades in the same classroom, yet they achieved a higher standard of literacy and numeracy than today, with all their drugs.

I am a parent, and I tried to help my daughter with her math. It was impossible. They have changed the terminology, and they don't stay in any one field of math for very long. Few parents, if any, can help their kids under the circumstances. Plus, they effectively hide the truth from parents, who most teachers feel are their enemy.

No, ritalin quiets the restless students in schools that are focussed on the self-concept of the good students, who come colour coded or wearing dresses. The main complainant is the teacher.

But my point is -- how can the schools stop drugs while using them? Just as how can they stop discrimination by discriminating? And will they ever get back to preparing their students to prosper in practical life?
cosmostein





Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 7516
Reputation: 300.8Reputation: 300.8
votes: 21
Location: The World

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toronto Centre wrote:
cosmostein wrote:

True,
However there is certainly a black and grey market for cigarettes.

As to which side of the supply and demand fence this may fall onto it will be seen.

There certainly is.

And much of it is driven by the high price of cigs from retail.

Australia is an example to look at. Their imports (illegal) amount to $1.5B in lost revenue and taxes. Proximity to China is close so they can easily be supplied .

A pack of smokes in Aus is now $30 and will hit $40 in a year.


All great examples;
My point is simply that its far to early to determine if there will be a grey/black market for the product till we see the pricing levels, the levels of taxation, and any other factors.

It may end up being like booze were there is a minimal secondary market, however it may end up like cigarettes where there is some profitability in those sales.
Bugs





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votes: 8

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No it isn't. That's what I had confirmed in Victoria.

To do what you want, you'd have to legalize marijuana in a way that will criminalize non-licensed production. The price is high because the law protects the market. If there is ever real competition between a large number of individual suppliers, the price will drop very significantly. And, of course, a price drop suggests there will be more usage.

If you criminalize the unlicensed producers, then you are right back where we are now.

Tell me, why are you opposed to the legalization of marijuana? Why is it different from any other commodity? It all goes back to irrational fears based on the idea that black jazz musicians did it. I know you wouldn't agree with social policy being made on such a basis, so what are the current reasons?
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